syrian ambassador to iraq. he left his post, fled to another country and is now supporting the rebels trying to throw out president bashar al assad. >> the regime in syria is a totalitarian regime and dictatorship. there's only one person who gives the orders. one person who is the president. >> he talked exclusively to cnn from his secure location in qatar. much more including what he says about syria protecting al qaeda. that's straight ahead in a few minutes. the syrian capital witnessed the most intense fighting yet today. according to activists. the opposition says 57 people were killed today alone in damascus. activists have a message for president obama. they say the time for action from the international community is now. regardless of how it might impact the election in november. >> with regard to america specifically, we would like to

say to president obama that waiting for election day the make the right decision on syria is unacceptable for syrians. we cannot understand that a superpower ignoring the killing of tens of thousands of syrian civilians because of an election campaign. also an american pastor kidnapped in egypt apparently had no idea that where he was traveling was a dangerous area. the pastor was abducted along with a parishioner and tour guard. his son talked with cnn's randi kaye about the ordeal and how it's taking a toll on the entire family, especially the pastor's wife. >> all of a sudden and i just -- she even right now seems like a dream to her, a nightmare. >> nightmare indeed. we'll have more of the interview

coming up in a few minutes. another chapter in the rate fixing scandal. they're looking into possible criminal activity. authorities around the world are trying to find out if banks manipulated a key interest rate that impacts most consumers right before the financial crisis hit. ten big banks including barclays, citigroup and jpmorgan chase are reportedly being investigated. police arrested nba star jason kidd early this morning in south hampton, new york. they say the newly signed new york knick star was drunk and crashed his cadillac escalade into a pole. he was treated for minor injuries at a hospital. he signed a three-year, $9.5 million deal on thursday. and the state of florida will now have access to a federal law enforcement database to challenge the eligibility of voters. state officials sued to gain access to the data base in an attempt to purge non-citizens from voting roles. a handful of states have been monitoring what happened in florida. thinking about launching their

own legal fight. and sad news from the entertainment world. academy award winning actress celeste holm has died in new york. she starred on broadway, television and in film, but was probably best known for her role in "gentleman's agreement" back in 1947. she was 95 years old. well, it is the hour's top story, a top syrian official defects. he's the highest ranking member of bashar al assad's inner circle to leave the country and switch allegiances to support the rebels. the former syrian ambassador to iraq is being protected today by the government of qatar and he talked exclusively to one american network, that is cnn. our ivan watson spoke with him about the dictatorship in syria and why he decided to leave. >> who is making the decisions in damascus right now? who is directing the syrian government policy at facing this uprising?

>> the regime in syria is a totalitarian regime and a dictatorship. there is only one person who gives the orders. one person who is the president. the rest of the regime personnel are people who only obey. >> reporter: you have been a senior member within the syrian government, a governor. the first ambassador to iraq from syria in more than 20 years. what prompted you to say i have had it, i don't want to work with this government anymore? >> i served the syrian regime for 34 years. i was among those at the top of the syrian regime but what happened in the last year during the holy revolution, all the killing, the massacres and the declaration of war by bashar al assad against the syrian people stopped any kind of hope towards real change which had been

promised by bashar al assad. of course, the regime will try and destroy my reputation. this is a well-known tactic. i may be the defection that hurts the regime the most. >> reporter: does the syrian president and supports, do they believe they'll win in the end? >> they're trapped. they entered into a war of blood. and they are aware that they're going to pay for it. they're just buying time. maybe they will get a chance to escape. >> reporter: do you want a military intervention into syria from foreign powers? >> this regime will not go without force. the suffering of the syrian people is very great and they want it to end by any way possible. i support military intervention because i know the nature of this regime. this regime will only go with force. >> reporter: what message would you like to send to bashar al assad and to your former colleagues in the syrian government right now?

>> my former colleagues, i ask them to join the people and leave this corrupt regime. and there's still time for that. to bashar al assad, i say you don't know history. two wills cannot be defeated. the will of god and the will of the people. so learn from history. have mercy on the poor people of syria and history will curse you for the crimes you committed in syria. >> and more now on those two americans waiting for their freedom in egypt. pastor michelle alie was abducted on friday in the sinai province. an egyptian official said they're unharm and well fed and randi kaye spoke with family members this morning. >> we know as much as we know in the news in terms of they're doing a lot of negotiating. they're trying to -- they're

trying the best that they can. we're waiting. >> how concerned are you about your father's health? >> we are concerned but we're christians and we believe in god. we're in good faith. we're resolved in our faith. we're -- we know that god is going to see him out of this situation. but at the same time, we're human. and we just want to see our father get home. we want to see the sister, the member get home also. we want to see the tour guide too because i'm sure a lot of people are not speaking about him too. but we want to see everybody come home safely. he's diabetic so there's the only concern we might have. we have not spoken to him. i especially have not spoken to him since i have dropped him off at the airport on tuesday. so we just would like the

release and hopefully he is being treated very well where he is. >> absolutely, wishing for the best for the entire family and a quick return for the pastor and the woman traveling with him. coming up next, mitt romney's running mate. is condi rice actually a possible candidate at all? she says no way, so why does the drudge report have everyone talking? if you're a new yorker, you know how much living space is limited. up next, the tight squeeze for living space. things have been a little strange. (sfx: sound of piano smashing) roadrunner: meep meep. meep meep? (sfx: loud thud sound)

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all right. so condoleezza rice says over and over again that she does not want to be vice president. doesn't want to run for office. but it seems like she cannot escape this debate no matter what she says. he's talk about with our two regular contributors. elsie is also a senior writer at espn and we'll talk to him later about sports, but guy, the condi rice talk started a few days ago with the report on the drudge report that she was a frontrunner to be on mitt romney's ticket. i'm just -- i've got to talk about the timing here, right? because this comes out friday and you've got bain bain bain and it's condi, condi, condi. there's a lot of talk that matt rhodes of the campaign is pretty close to people at the drudge report. so what do we think here? is there any real substance to this? do you mean that condi is a viable running mate at this point in time? >> no, i don't. i don't know how he feels.

yeah, i don't think this is realistic. we can run through the litany of reasons quickly why rice doesn't make sense to be mitt romney's vp candidate, but the most important of which she is pro-choice. that's a deal killer for any republican running for national office. what more, as you just said, she doesn't want to be vice president. it's a nonstarter. the timing of it is obvious because we're changing the subject. let's not talk about bain. but by the way, the bain conversation was also a subject changer from the jobs report a week ago so let's be fair. we're changing subjects away from the things that hold real substance. >> well, those two are at least related, will. at least they're related because mitt romney is running on the fact he can create nor jobs. those two make sense to me. the condi conversation, that makes no sense. >> let's talk about some other possible candidates. when you look at condoleezza rice she is tied to the bush administration and, you know, it a enot likely that romney wants

to be very associated with things that condi was very involved in in terms of the invasion of iraq, weapons of mass destruction. obviously the abortion issue is huge here. let's talk about other possible running mates. rob portman of ohio, bob mcdonnell of virginia, what do you think of either of those names? >> i have been having a difficult time, you know, when i saw the question an hour ago, i had a difficult time trying to find someone who is conservative to me. his problem is wooing the independents. it's not as if conservatives are going to say, well, if he doesn't pick the right vp we'll vote for president obama. what he needs to do is commune date to the independents that he's not as crazy as some of the extremists in his base and that requires him to pick a vp candidate who disagrees with him on social issues.

i really like mike bloom berg. and this has been the problem with mitt romney from the beginning too in finding a good candidate. >> will, you think portman -- you told me in the break the ideal choice? >> that's right. i think lz is applying the wrong analysis. i actually think what you do and what rob portman does is double down on bland. bland is what -- >> why double down on bland? >> because they want this election to be about barack obama. president barack obama. this election needs to be a referendum on the job president obama has done over the last four years. don't need to give the voters something to vote for, but you want them to vote against barack obama. i know people say the opposite. mitt romney might just be the perfectly bland candidate. >> will, how do you energize voters with that strategy? >> i think barack obama has energized them. >> how does a romney/portman

ticket help -- >> i'm saying that barack obama energized them. >> but those people are going to vote against president obama regardless. he's not going to energize independents who are looking for solutions or answers. he's going to energize people who already despise him. >> i want to -- >> by the way, the small little hedge you pick portman, it has the small potential to bring ohio. which he must bring. i don't know if portman delivers ohio. >> no doubt a must win. a president hasn't been elected without winning ohio since 1964. a quick other topic that's fascinating. the bipartisan outrage in washington over our olympian uniforms being made in china. the house speaker, not happy about this. 98% of the apparel that we wear, me, you, all of us is not made in the u.s. what do you make of this outrage, guys? >> i think it's ridiculous. i think it's grand standing. i think if they wanted to have a

mature conversation, they would talk about not just the clothes we wear, but about everything that we have depended upon and that we like for cheap prices are not made in this country. and have a real serious conversation on how that influenced the economy. the olympic, that happens once every four years and talking ago what the athletes are wearing is ridiculous and oversimplifies the problem. we have too many products made outside the u.s. >> and this is just an example. will, quickly. >> yeah, just political grand standing on that. harry said let's put them in a pile and burn them. >> boehner wasn't happy about it either. >> what's that? >> house speaker wasn't happy either. >> this is ridiculous bipartisan outrage. i would carry it one step further. this is not a problem. let's laud the maker's ability

to make ratinational economic decisions to find the lowest bidder. a newspaper publicly announces it will no longer report on crime by drug cartels. we'll have more on that coming up. you can watch cnn live on your computer. go to cnn.com/tv. and some difficult ones. but, through it all, we've persevered, supporting some of the biggest ideas in modern history. so why should our anniversary matter to you? because for 200 years, we've been helping ideas move from ambition to achievement. and the next great idea could be yours. ♪

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well, hillary clinton has visited more than a hundred countries as secretary of state, but few visits have ended as badly as her trip to egypt. and we have more on what happened in jerusalem. let's get to that first. give us a sense of what happen at the end of the secretary of state's trip >> reporter: well, poppy, she was opening -- she was doing a flag raising at one of the u.s. consulate in alexander, egypt. she was making some remarks. ironically about how the u.s. wanted to support egypt's transition and the fact that the u.s. wasn't picking any winners or losers. that's been a criticism during -- there were protesters outside the consulate. it was a little harrowing for her staff and us journalists.

they were throwing bottles of water. they were throwing tomatoes and throwing shoes which is considered a real sign of disrespect in the arab world. they were chanting monica, monica. i think it was a reference to monica lewinsky. obviously they didn't understand this was a totally new president or maybe it was a reference to bill clinton. but certainly it was a little bit harrowing. the secretary never in any danger. her car, her vehicle was not hit. but one of the egyptian officials did get hit in the face with a tomato. >> wow. completely disrespectful. you know, it's interesting this comes after what seemed like a very welcome reception when she sat down with newly elected president morsi yesterday. i know she met with the head military leader there and also with coptic christians. you said that was a difficult encounter for her as well,

meeting with the christian group. >> reporter: there seems to be a real sense, and her aides alluded to it, this sense that that's a perception that the u.s. backs the muslim brotherhood. in egypt, not everybody voted for president morsi. there were a great deal of people who were scared about the muslim brotherhood. they voted for the other one who was more in line with the old council, the old regime. when they met with secretary clinton, you aren't protecting our rights. you're siding with the muslim brotherhood. what the secretary of state said right before this event was the u.s. doesn't pick any winners or losers. we are looking to help you with your democratic transition. she is talking to president morsi to get his act together, get a government together. also telling the military council get back to your day job and get a democratically elected president, time to get back to your real job of protecting the

country. so i think there's a lot of questions about u.s. intentions in the region. there always has been for many years, but now that president hosni mubarak is gone and there's a new president the u.s. said this is a guy who was elected and this is a guy we're going to work with. the u.s. can't pick and choose who they want to work with this in this world. >> elise, what's the next step, where's the secretary headed next? >> reporter: well, we just landed in tel aviv, a short while ago. took a short ride to jerusalem. she'll be meeting with israeli officials. prime minister benjamin netanyahu, defense minister, and trying to get the peace process back together and giving her her perceptions about what the situation in egypt, israelis are very concerned about what's going on on the border. you have syria. no shortage of issues tomorrow.

>> especially with the kidnapping of those two americans and elise, i know you have a big day an interview with the secretary of state hillary clinton coming up tomorrow. we'll look for that. great reporting in the six weeks you have been in the region. thank you, elise. all right. it has been called a direct threat on the freedom of speech. newspapers in mexico are changing their reporting after violent threats from some of the country's most notorious drug cartels. i find this to be an outrageous story. nick valencia is here. you said grenade attack. >> grenade fragmentations thrown at two different newspapers. two different states. this is a direct threat. like you said, this a direct threat on freedom of speech. we have done stories that people don't like. few of us feared for our lives. this is a situation that the reporters are dealing with. let me tell you why it happened. monterrey, mexico, a very

prominent newspaper, they did an expose about the local department of motor vehicles issuing illegitimate, stolen license plates to make cars like legitimate. the next day the newspaper offices attacked with a fragment grenade. now a couple of years ago, if you can imagine this, massed gunmen step into the newsroom, open fire indiscriminately and one of the journalists is paralyzed. >> you can't imagine that. we were running through the numbers. you said 80 some journalists killed. >> since 2000. >> since 2000. >> across mexico. >> these are just journalists and when you look at what told you me, 90% of the crimes in mexico go unsolved. it makes me wonder what kind of grasp if any enforcement the government, the police have there. >> those are staggering numbers. 90% of crimes, this is an official statistic from the attorney general's office. 90% or more of the crimes in

mexico go unsolved. yes, they're committed to protect -- more than 80 journalists killed since 2000. half very killed or kidnapped since calderon took office. >> this is the way you inform an electorate is through free press. >> right. >> this is a huge step. it appears for the two newspaper, this is coming on the and end for them. that's it, we need to protect our staff. >> what makes this all the more unusual and we have a statement from the newspaper, but what makes this so much more unusual, the fact that they'd address this publicly. wel refrain for as long as needed for publishing any information related to violent disputes, our city and other regions are suffering. if you're losing the beat reporter, you're losing the people with institutional no, ma'am -- with institutional knowledge. >> unbelievable. clearly the cartels are winning

in this. >> sad to say, but many people would agree with you. >> thanks for bringing us the report. adult entertainment, so accessible on tvs. and a pair of christian and muslim scholars want to change that. we'll tell you about that coming up next. >> you know, before the ipad i used to joke that i made useless programs. they're as useless as a song, a movie, a story. all of a sudden, with the ipad, i could just go directly to people and say, check this thing out. it doesn't -- we don't have to label what it is. it is called gravelx. see if you like it and they did. ♪ ♪

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almost half past the hour now. let's get you up to speed on the day's headlines. a very senior syrian official breaks ranks with damascus and supports the rebels. this man, the one-time syrian ambassador to iraq. he said bashar al assad is a dictator who rules syria by decree and says the only solution to ending the conflict is international military

intervention. the former ambassador spoke exclusively to cnn. the body of mary kennedy was moved to a new gravesite today on cape cod. the family chose what they're calling a sunny hillside in the same cemetery. they bought 50 plots surrounding the grave reserved for her six children. she hanged herself on may 16th after battling depression for much of her life. she made history as the first-ever legally blind congre contestant in the miss usa contest last night. she didn't win. but she wants to help others with disabilities. somewhere among the movies around sports and news channels, you will find adult fare, but some people want hotels to remove that. here's our susan kapcandiotti.

>> reporter: finding adult entertainment is as simple as clicking a remote. but that's changing. >> we are pointing out that's a bad thing to do. >> reporter: professor robert george from princeton co-wrote letters to the ceos of the hotel groups asking them to remove adult movies. >> we believe despite the lucrative nature of the pornography business, that people of goodwill, shareholder, can act on the basis of conscience here and lay profit aside for the sake of human dig myty. >> reporter: he acknowledges that porn will still exist. he just hopes to limit access to it. >> society pays heavy costs in terms of damaged relationships, wounded people. addiction. >> reporter: craig gross agrees, but feels going after hotels is the wrong approach. >> it is an empty gesture.

>> reporter: he ministers to those addicted to porn. he prefers to target the demand for adult movies not the supplier. >> this is about money and dollars. that's why this is sold in hotels. and so removing it from hotels to me isn't the issue. the issue is that people are consuming pornography. >> reporter: after all, pornography would still be available on the internet and mobile devices. even if hotels pulled the plug. >> are we going to ask them to stop stocking the minibar or stop selling haagen-dazs by the pint in the room service? >> reporter: porstar well, can penn state repair its image after this weak's bombshell alleging that university leaders ignored sex abuse by jerry sandusky? and what about the legacy of coach joe paterno? we'll look in depth at that straight ahead. i want to go ♪ ♪ i want to win [ breathes deeply ] ♪ this is where the dream begins ♪ ♪ i want to grow

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all right. now to a pretty remarkable achievement. a kid as old as my nephew, 8 years old. his name taylor armstrong recently climbed mount kilimanjaro. for a pretty great cause. he took us along on his journey. >> well, i wanted to climb mount kilimanjar

kilimanjaro, and i heard about cure duchenne and boys can't walk again. so i trained for a year. every month i'd climb a mountain for elevation. it's 90,341 feet. it takes eight days. we start about 9:00. some days we hike for three hours and some days we hike for six hours. there's one part of the mountain where we had a rock climb. the glaciers were really big. it was all ice. on the mountain, you go slow and steady. that's what pulley pulley means. the porters, they sang a song. ♪ on the top it was below 12.

when we had warmers, like toe warmers, hand warmers. body heaters and lots of layers. my heart was pounding so fast so i had to take lots of breaks. i was all worked up. my legs couldn't move. at the top, i felt like i wanted to turn around, but my dad said don't turn around we're going to make it. well, i was on the top of africa. and i was super high and it was just amazing. i have done mount kilimanjaro. >> how does it feel, buddy? >> feels great. i like climbing because i get to hang out with my dad and see nature and reach new heights. >> for that, 8-year-old tyler armstrong is certainly making his mark. well, imagine having to put your dishes in the bathtub because your apartment is too small to put them anywhere else. a tour of really tiny and expensive apartments is next.

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and now stay rewarded with vacation pay. stay two weekend nights and get a $75 prepaid card. all right. so you have hear about how small new york's apartments can be. or maybe you're living in one of them. well, now, the mayor of new york michael bloomberg wants to attract more people to the city by building microapartments. take a look at what richard ross shows us about people living in spaces half that size. take a look. >> reporter: since new york city wants to build new, tiny

apartments -- how big is your apartment? i came calling in greenwich village to see how residents in shoe box sized apartments survive. >> you have to duck under, but i'm lucky i'm short. >> reporter: genevieve schuyler has been living here for seven years. >> this apartment is about 105 square feet. >> reporter: that's much smaller than the microsized apartments they want to build. michael bloomberg walked a potential floor plan. he said it's critical to attracting young people, those who are priced out of the market. kno kno new yorkers are known for overcoming challenges. >> this is an knowing. >> reporter: kramer adjusted in "seinfeld" when japanese visitors needed a place to live. >> good night.

>> reporter: future renters of microapartments might want to check out companies that transform furniture. >> i think that people he to be smarter and they have to get smarter furniture. >> so after i cook, i'll put my dishes in the tub. sort of close the shower. >> reporter: whoa, after you cook you put your dishes in the tub? >> yes. >> reporter: that's where you clean them? >> yes. >> reporter: the rent will be around $2,000. not bad for new york. one new real estate report suggests the average manhattan rent is nearly double that. small apartments appeal to a growing singles population sensitive to high rents. >> there are times when it's challenging. but there are times when it is really easy. >> reporter: do you mind if i sit on your bed? because i can't stand. richard roth, cnn, new york. that's awesome. what is next for penn state football? switching gears here, and also what happened to legendary coach joe paterno's legacy?

we'll have that conversation straight ahead. you can continue watching cnn when you're not home. you can watch it at work, on your computer. go to cnn.com/tv. about once a month. drive around town all the time doing errands and never ever have to fill up gas in the city. i very rarely put gas in my chevy volt. last time i was at a gas station was about...i would say... two months ago. the last time i went to the gas station must have been about three months ago. i go to the gas station such a small amount that i forget how to put gas in my car. ♪

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well, this week's report by former fbi director louis freeh painted a very damning picture of penn state leaders covering up and ignoring evidence that jerry sandusky was sexually abusing children. "sports illustrated" and he joinsme from new york. the current issue of "sports illustrated," where are they now, is out right now. john, thank you for coming in. we appreciate it. let's talk just your biggest take away from this week's report. does this make you think any differently than you did before?

>> well, this sort of made it all official. i think macro take away, this was as bad as everyone thought. not only was this horrible acts but an active attempt to seal. there was a cover-up, which people suspected. i think the microtake away is that joe paterno knew about the 1998 allegation according to the freeh report which completely changes the tick tock, sort of completely changes the narrative. when mike mcqueary three or four years later about the shower incident, joe paterno acted cavalierly and knew the same guy had been accused several years earlier. that little bit of information completely changes how the whole narrative unspools and how we should view joe paterno. >> we'll talk about joe paterno's legacy later on in the hour. but now i want to talk about what might happen to the existing football program, to the school what the ncaa might do. so when they issue a report on

this, the ncaa, we'll be looking for language that -- whether or not there's language that says there was a lack of institutional control. that is lingo from the ncaa, and whether or not there is going to be a so-called death penalty as a result of this. explain that to our viewers. >> yeah. the ncaa has the ability to invoke this death penalty. they have only done it five times before. usually it comes from violating ncaa rules or getting a competitive advantage. this is totally separate. i don't think anyone would deny there was a lack of institutional control. this is a criminal matter. this wasn't about giving recruits corvettes or making too many texts to recruits. so it's an interesting position for the ncaa. if they don't bring the hammer down the obvious response is and penn state doesn't get it who will get it. i'm ambivalent. i think there's a lot of collateral damage. jerry sandusky is in jail, joe paterno is no longer with us, so

who is going to be hurt? there's going to ab lot of small businesses yes we need to address this culture, yes we want to see punishment and see deterrent. i think there's got to be a more creative solution than a death penalty which would have the effect of martyring this program. >> give us a sense of what schon state, football is the engine that drives the athletic department, and there will be no football program most likely for a year and that would hava i devastating effect for the whole athletic department. >> is penn state really an anomaly in terms of schools where the football program and the head coach have such power and, by the way, when you talk about money, we should note that a lot of money that comes into the football program is in academics, is penn state alone in this in terms of the power wielded by the program? >> that's an interesting

question. the knee-jerk answer is no. there are other autocratic coaches, but when i was at penn state covering the story, i was struck by the geographic ins lairity, and you have the you toering figure who was there for decades and decades, i think football was running the whole campus, and everyone that hears penn state assoctes it with football and there's this geographic ancillarity. this really was like, i really liken it once to russian nesting dolls where there was a layer offence lairity, and in the middle of pennsylvania, where there wasn't the scrutiny with usc in los angeles and florida, i think this contributed as well. >> it's really sad for the people having to go through this and feel the repercussions and the young kids. don't go anywhere, i will bring in l.c. back into the conversation and we'll talk about joe paterno's legacy and

how americans judge public figures who fall from grace. that's coming up next.

et's talk more about penn state now. specifically, joe paterno and how we as americans choose to remember our public figures. john worthheim is here, and we are joined by l.c. granderson and senior writer for espn. let's start with this first, paterno was held up as an example of everything that was

right with college sports, winning with with integrity, academics was important, running what was thought to be a clean program, a real sports legend and take a look at this, a mural featured paterno with the halo over his head. yesterday the artist who painted that mural removed the halo and the same artist removed jerry sandusky from the same mural earlier this year. it just shows us how quickly things can change and this is all in the wake of the free report on what happened at penn state. what do you think? what does paterno get remembered for? >> i think it's unquestionably for this. i think people will say his legacy has been completely shredded. i think it's been completely re-written and in the face of what we now know and in the face of what louis freeh's report confirms, 400 and some-odd victories seem trivial. that this was his last act in a lot of ways, sometimes we see people have bad acts and have a

long career where they can make up for it and that wasn't the case. his whole reputation was predicated on this righteousness, so it wasn't as though this was a random act, and it's completely undercut what he stood for. i think this, like it or not, penn state is his legacy now, unfortunately. >> and paterno's family has come out and they've been vocal in all of this and they've said, look, joe paterno was not perfect, but he's human and he came forward and spoke out more than anyone else has in this, in terms of those under fire right now. what do you think, l.c.? does he get remembered for all that he did right or does this carry him? >> unfortunately for him, a lot of people in this country don't know what he did right. i know it seems as if -- obviously, we're in sports and sports is our world and for a lot of people the first time they heard of joe paterno was from the sandusky trial. so they only know this about him and that makes it difficult and why his legacy will be defined

by this case. it isn't because the win wasn't significant or that he wasn't the person at penn state. the sandusky trial stretched so far beyond the realm of sports and he was in everyone's living room and it defined who he was for a lot of people who didn't know joe paterno the coach, just joe paterno who didn't talk about his assistant coach raping boys. >> that's a very interesting point. you know, over the past few days his former competitor and close friend florida coach, bobby bowden was asked whether the statue should come down. he said he thinks it should. the university has not made any decision and he was also asked about paterno's legacy and listen to this, you can hear the pain in his voice. take a listen. >> you know what his legacy's going to be. it's going to be this. this is saying i used to warn my football players over and over, you be good, you be good. set a good name. you get a good reputation. you can kill it in 15 minutes.

you can kill it by one act. this is what's happened to joe's situation. >> yea. so let's broaden this out, john, and let's talk about other public figures. first in sports, it had been at the center of controversy. i really want to know and people were telling me on twitter, you can't compare the sandusky terrible acts to anyone else, but if you talk about pete rose, barry bonds, roger clemens, lance armstrong, just the fact that whether they're vindicated or want in the end, their names were tarnished and they were at the top of their game, what do you think when they look broader at sports and legacy? >> athletes are different than coaches, and i think that athletes, for better or worse we don't expect them necessarily to be perfect humans and taking steroids is not something to condo condone, but they're records and home runs and you can make a statistical case and especially joe paterno whose whole image is predicated on morality and

righteousness and it's been completely blown up by this. this cover-up to me is just what seals it. i think he's in a much worse spot. he's in a much worse spot than a lance armstrong or barry bonds. >> the point you made earlier about having time to do things after to make up, not only was this paterno's worst moment, it was right near the end of his life and this freeh report came out after he died. l.c., talk about politics and someone like president clinton despite the lewinsky scandal, he is massively popular and adored by so many and still many supported or look at a nixon and watergate. how much does it have to do with timing? >> well, a lot of it has to do with timing, but there's also the degree of what the scandal or controversy happens to be and what you just proposed that, to. when it comes to president clinton had he run on a policy of family values, i'm a strong christian man, don't you ever cheat on your wife, blah, blah,

blah, blah, blah, i think we would look at him and monica lewinsky differently than what we do now. the same thing with nixon. part of the reason why nixon was ly